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¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose 1977
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¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/4/2006 12:41:00 AM

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¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 3/9/2006 11:03:00

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Big Nose: we all know you are sarcastic; there is really no need to demonstrate it again and again. You¡¦d better just stick to the argument.

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Big Nose: A simple answer to the question ¡§Is China better today than 50 years ago?¡¨ will answer you tedious comment above. If you really think that China is not better today than 50 years ago, then I will rest my case. However, I am sure you are not stupid or simply argue for the sake of arguing and agree that China is better today than 50 years ago. As such, we can only really look at the FACTS ¡V that is, China¡¦s ¡§success¡¨ has been brought about by ¦@²£ÄÒ.
Some may argue that if there was no ¦@²£ÄÒ, China would have been even more ¡§successful¡¨- well, I would say that such comment is a non-starter as no argument should be based upon hypothesis, period. If we are allowed to hypothesize, that my counter argument would be to suggest to you that without ¦@²£ÄÒ, China would have been much worse. We can argue all day long and we would never untangle the argument and convince the other. Therefore, we can really use FACTS and the two simple questions I put to you is ¡§Is China better today than 50 years ago? And is China¡¦s success brought about by ¦@²£ÄÒ?¡¨. Please no lectures, just answer these two questions as sensibly as you can, if you can be sensible.
Also, I don¡¦t and I sincerely suggest you should not continue to ¡§cry over sour milk¡¨. Okay, China has suffered much in the past and yes, the suffering occurred under the leadership of ¦@²£ÄÒ; but should we be dwelling on some of the sad stories that took place and ignore the present (where China has progressed by miles and doing so much better today). What is really the point of dwelling on the past and ¡§bitch¡¨ about the negative things. Okay, there are still much to be done to make China better but I strongly believe that the road to success it never straight forward and a certainty; especially a country the size and mix like China.
What makes you think you are the one to know it all and have all the answers?

¡§§ï­²¶}©ñ¡¨¨ì¤µ¤Ñºâ¤G¤Q¤»¦~´N¦n¤F¡A¤]¶W¹L¥|¥÷¤@¥@¬ö°Õ¡I§A¦b°ö¸tŪ®Ñ¡AÃø¹D§A¥¼¨£¹L¸gÀÙµo®iªº³t«×¥i¥H§Ö¨ì¤°»òµ{«×¶Ü¡H¬°¤°»ò­n¹ï³o¼Ëªºµw¥ó«Ø³]¤jÅå¤p©Ç¡A­nÀ°¦@²£ÄҫŶǥ\³Ò©O¡H´Nºâ·í³o¬Oµo®i¦¨ÁZ¡A¤]±o¬Ý¬Ý«D¬w¤µ¤Ñ¤£¤]¤ñ¤G¤Q¦~«e¡§²{¥N¤Æ¡¨¤F
Big Nose: I don¡¦t get you point here. Are you ¡§complaining¡¨ that China¡¦s progress is not as fast as you would like it? I do not need to explain to you why you should not compare Hong Kong and China. May be, and I stress that may be, China¡¦s progress has been slowed down; because of the various people who are against ¦@²£ÄÒ ; who keep bitching about this and that and causing distraction to the leadership of China and wasting resources and opportunities?
Should the children (regardless of age and sensibility etc etc) in a family entitle a say in how the family is run and what the family spending is? If you were a father of a family, would you have allowed ¡§¥Á¥D¡¨ in your house? Who sets the rules in the house? Or every member vote on everything?

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Big Nose: If you agree that China is ¡¥successful¡¦ in that she is better today than 50 years ago, I still maintain that credit for China¡¦s ¡§success¡¨ today goes to the leadership and the leadership has been ¦@²£ÄÒ ¡V and you may disagree but to me, this is just undeniable FACT

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Big Nose: Equally, ¦@²£ÄÒ is ¡§responsible¡¨ for the sufferings China had experienced in the past. However, I do not see what good it does for us to scream and criticize the past when China has really come a long way. Another simple question, if you father was poor and brought you a appalling life style for 10 years when you were a kid, yet he had turned around and made improvements to the family ever since; would you still criticize your own father for what happened and made you a poor kid? Or should you really be grateful?

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Big Nose: ¥Á¥D·|§«Ãª¶i¨B¡H¨º­n¬Ý¤°»ò¥s¶i¨B¤F .. exactly. When I look at some ¥Á¥D countries, I also see flaws, I also see poverty, I also see injustice; conspiracies, corruptions, unethical activities, cheating and scams etc etc. I simply do not believe in politics and I see sins and evil in EVERY system ¡V and hence I do not believe in an system in practice. Again, I am not pro or against ¥Á¥D; equally, I am not pro or against ¦@²£ÄÒ, all along, I ¡§argue¡¨ against your idea of ¥Á¥D is really the best system and should be implemented and supported. I simply do not know if and what system to believe or support.

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Big Nose: It is a FACT that China, at this very stage, cannot have ¥Á¥D (well, at least not that kind of ¥Á¥D you are hoping to see), this is simply a FACT and not for denial; I am not suggesting China SHOULD NOT have ¥Á¥D (all the same, I am not suggesting China SHOULD have ¥Á¥D).
My thinking is that there are people in China who benefit from the existing leadership (¦@²£ÄÒ); it may well be the minority; nonetheless, this being the case, what is really wrong with the existing system/ leadership/ governing party? If ¦@²£ÄÒ is so so wrong, evil and bad, change will come (like Russia) and before the change appears in front of our eyes; all credits and ¡§blame¡¦ go to the existing leadership (¦@²£ÄÒ) ¡V I see you blame ¦@²£ÄÒ and give ¦@²£ÄÒ zero credit and I believe it is wrong and that is my argument here all along.
Also, none of us know for sure that even if ¦@²£ÄÒ is replaced by ¥Á¥D, China would be better off, this remains to be seen if it does happen and if we live long enough to see it...

¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M



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¯d¨¥¤H: Tat
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/2/2006 10:48:00 PM

Big Nose:

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Even if ¥Ã»·¤@ÄÒ±M¬Fªº¦@²£ÄÒ, what is wrong?¡¨

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¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose 1977
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/2/2006 7:17:00 PM

°ö¸t¤H1000

·í§Ú¬Ý¨£§A¤Þªº­^¤åªí¹F«U»y¡§barking up the wrong tree¡¨®É¡A§A¥O§Ú·Q°_¤F¤¤¤å«U»y¡§ª¯¤fªø¤£¥X¶H¤ú¡¨¡I
Big Nose: I certainly didn't think what you thought ¡§ª¯¤fªø¤£¥X¶H¤ú¡¨, and I can't help you if that is what you were led to think.

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Big Nose: make it simple, when you are dying of hunger, you would still use the last bit of energy on ¥Á¥D and not how to survive?

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Big Nose: Even if ¥Ã»·¤@ÄÒ±M¬Fªº¦@²£ÄÒ, waht is wrong? How bad is China now? Is it better or worse than 50 years ago? ¥Á¥D doesn't means ¨¥½×¦Û¥Ñ only; and when you have other high priority issues to deal with, can you really afford to have everybody to have a say in everytihng? How is ¥Á¥D to manage everyone's wants in everything? If not managed properly and effectively, ¥Á¥D can hold back progress.

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Big Nose: Same question, is China better today than 50 years ago? Has China not progressed at all. We need a evolution and not a revolution. Everything takes time, and nature will sort itself out in due course. What is the use of having "noises" everyday and every corner in a society? You may want ¥Á¥D; do we know if the majority of the people want ¥Á¥D? And if the majority of people do not want ¥Á¥D and voted against it, is it still ¥Á¥D?

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Big Nose: is ¥þ­±´¶¿ï the answer? is it the best solution for everyone? How fair and how representative is ¥þ­±´¶¿ï? I have seen vote-planting in HK when politicians are fighting for power using various ways - every system has its flaws, how can you convince anyone that ¥þ­±´¶¿ï is the best system?
I for one have doubt in ¥þ­±´¶¿ï when no doubt people would buy voters and some poor ignorance people would cast their votes without knowing what they are really doing.

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Big Nose: you are entitled to your opinion.

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¯d¨¥¤H: °ö¸t¤H1000
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/2/2006 2:39:00 PM

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¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose 1977
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/2/2006 9:18:00 AM

°ö¸t¤H1000,

You still don't get my point. My point here is that I am NOT fighting against ¥Á¥D ... so you do not need to use ¹q¤O again and again to try and explain ¥Á¥D to me ... as you are simply barking up the wrong tree.

Let me try another angle ...
Let's say ¥Á¥D = wealth (i.e. money, lots of money); we all also know there are down side to having wealth but most if all all people would agree that having wealth is a good thing and that every one should have wealth ... (very much like ¥Á¥D, right?)
To achieve wealth, as we all know, is not easy, well, not for soem people anyway. There are all sorts of factors that might well prevent people from achieving wealth (like ¥Á¥D, right?)

Now, if you go around shouting and screaming to poor people (people who do not have ¥Á¥D / wealth) ... telling them how good ¥Á¥D/wealth is ... these poor people know full well how good ¥Á¥D/wealth is and would love to have ¥Á¥D/wealth YET, they simply are not in a position to achieve ¥Á¥D/wealth (at this very point, not sure if they would ever will), then what you are doing is somewhat meaningless and perhaps even stupid ... like stating the obvious in theory but ignoring the facts in reality.

ok, we all love to have wealth, some are lucky to have it and others are not so lucky. if I come to you and tell you day and night how good wealth is, would it make your wealth grow? or would you find me boring, meaningless or perhaps pain in the back side?

Finally, it is all about priority, conditioning, timing, leadership and various other factor etc etc. like to a blind person, light means nothing to him ...!



¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M



¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose 1977
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/2/2006 9:03:00 AM

°ö¸t¤H1000,

You still don't get my point.




¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M



¯d¨¥¤H: °ö¸t¤H1000
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/2/2006 1:58:00 AM

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¯d¨¥¤H: Big Nose 1977
¥DÃD: re: ·R °ê
¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/1/2006 5:32:00 PM

°ö¸t¤H1000,

Have you ever thought about:
1. ¥Á¥D is not everything. In some societies, ¥Á¥D properly is way down on the priority list as there are other more critical issues that need to be deal with when resource is limited.
2. does ¥Á¥D really mean every one having a say in EVERYTHING, EVERY TIME?

Again, I stress that I am not for or against anything, I simply find flaws in extreme view - in this case, I find your case very extreme and as such irrational.


¦^¤W­¶ | ¥D­¶ | ·j´M



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¯d¨¥¤é´Á: 9/1/2006 4:19:00 PM

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Big Nose 1977¡M §A short¥ª «§¡M ¦P ©O ¯Z ¤Í Á¿ ¥Á ¥D ¡M Á¿ ¦Û ¥Ñ ¡M ¤H ¦a «Y ¥Á ¤ý ¡M ¥u ¦³ Ê\¦a ¥ý ¥i ¥H Á¿ ¦Û ¥Ñ ¡M ¦P ¦æ ¨Ï ¦Û ¥Ñ ¡M ¡C
Bid Nose: yes, I think I am short ¥ª; having been talking with some of these people here ... a cold shower and a chilled drink will refresh my head soon ...



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Oh, I see.

Thanks for the clarification, just that English is my mother tongue at home ... and I feel the warm regardless what language is spoken...

Expression should not be limited by anything; in this case, language. Sometimes, message can be taken without uttering a single word...



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Brothers here may be of greater knowledge in Chinese than in English, and would find themselves at home if communicate in mother-tongue.
Big Nose: streching beyond my infinite wisdom; I still have no idea what you are trying to say with the above ... it probably doesn't matter anyway ...

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Brothers here may be of greater knowledge in Chinese than in English, and would find themselves at home if communicate in mother-tongue.



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What are the exact reasons for these people ²æ²£Â÷¶}¤F­ì©~¦a? Also, please explain the cause was ¦@²£ÄÒ¨î«×¤U and not some other reasoning?

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